How come Desmond didn't ask about Claire when he saw Sun holding Aaron? Desmond supposedly had a vision Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter. Doesn't seem like that's gonna happen with Claire off in Jacob's cabin. So what the hell did Charlie die for?

I'm leaning towards the fact that he made it up because he doesn't seem to concerned with it.

He probably had something else on his mind, like a buttload of C4!

Jeez, Desmond had lots of visions, and not all of them happened. It's not scripture guys, and he lied to Charlie constantly, this was just one more lie.

He asked about Claire. He certainly looks like he has a lot on his mind, and I don't doubt that's one of the things he has on his mind. I personally don't think Desmond lied to Charlie on purpose.... but we know that Claire isn't on a helicopter with Aaron, so... :frown:
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I also want to add that I have a feeling that we'll have a Desmond FB to his vision that he had, and it'll show Aaron on the helicopter, in the arms of a woman.... and then the image will pan up to show Kate's face. Cut back to Desmond realizing the mistake he made.

Des - love him, but he's not the fastest boat in the race or the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Penny cuts hims some slack, I do too.

Yeah, enough C4 to blow a hole in the universe will distract you...

The freighter will be 5 miles off shore , bet it will blow and everybody on shore will see it blow.

Or it's possible someone on the Island or freighter has changed something that was supposed to happen--so the chain of events is interrupted.

I just don't think Des doesn't care! I also don't think he lied to Charlie. What would be the sense in that?? :34853_huh:

Yeah, enough C4 to blow a hole in the universe will distract you...

The freighter will be 5 miles off shore , bet it will blow and everybody on shore will see it blow.

Yea, but he helped Sun off the raft before he went to the room and saw the c4. Then he ran to get Michael and Jin.

I think in his vision he saw a woman holding Aaron and just assumed it was Claire.

Yea, but he helped Sun off the raft before he went to the room and saw the c4. Then he ran to get Michael and Jin.

I was a little shocked too that he didn't enquire to where Claire was, but I refuse to believe Desmond lied to Charlie. I believe he told Charlie exactly how he saw things and for some reason he must have misinterpreted the vision. I'm sure we'll get an answer to this eventually and it won't end with Desmond having selfish or ulterior motives.

Or it's possible someone on the Island or freighter has changed something that was supposed to happen--so the chain of events is interrupted.

I just don't think Des doesn't care! I also don't think he lied to Charlie. What would be the sense in that?? :34853_huh:

Alex being killed and Ben out for blood because of it. Remember, the rules were changed.

He asked about Claire. He certainly looks like he has a lot on his mind, and I don't doubt that's one of the things he has on his mind. I personally don't think Desmond lied to Charlie on purpose.... but we know that Claire isn't on a helicopter with Aaron, so... :frown:
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I also want to add that I have a feeling that we'll have a Desmond FB to his vision that he had, and it'll show Aaron on the helicopter, in the arms of a woman.... and then the image will pan up to show Kate's face. Cut back to Desmond realizing the mistake he made.

Ooohhh, I like that idea! We never really saw that vision so maybe he only saw part of the person holding Aaron and assumed it was Claire. Poor Des, he'll be pulling at those gorgeous locks and crying "Oh NO, what've I done!" Maybe there's a "failsafe key" on the boat!

Yea, but he helped Sun off the raft before he went to the room and saw the c4. Then he ran to get Michael and Jin.

Again, he's probably assuming Claire's coming on the boat next trip.

I was a little shocked too that he didn't enquire to where Claire was, but I refuse to believe Desmond lied to Charlie. I believe he told Charlie exactly how he saw things and for some reason he must have misinterpreted the vision. I'm sure we'll get an answer to this eventually and it won't end with Desmond having selfish or ulterior motives.

Charlie asked him if he was absolutely positive if Claire and Aaron got on the helicopter and Desmond said YES. Now it seems really crappy if Desmond got it wrong because that means he asked Charlie to give up his life for nothing.

I hope Desmond didn't lie but I hope it makes sense why he told Charlie he had to die. I don't think things are gonna end well for Desmond.

BTW. How did Desmond mininterpret a vision of seeing someone get on a helicopter? Either he saw them get on it or he didn't.

Why would he say yes to Charlie if he wasn't absolutely positive?

Charlie asked him if he was absolutely positive if Claire and Aaron got on the helicopter and Desmond said YES. Now it seems really crappy if Desmond got it wrong because that means he asked Charlie to give up his life for nothing.

I hope Desmond didn't lie but I hope it makes sense why he told Charlie he had to die. I don't think things are gonna end well for Desmond.

BTW. How did Desmond mininterpret a vision of seeing someone get on a helicopter? Either he saw them get on it or he didn't.

Why would he say yes to Charlie if he wasn't absolutely positive?

He was also positive that it was Penny that parachuted onto the Island, but he got that wrong too.

He can easily get a vision wrong if he doesn't see the face. Plus, these are "visions" how do we know what rules they follow, pbviously the future isn't written in stone as Desmond changed it several times by saving Charlie's life.

I thought he was a big poopy head for not asking about her, but at least he paused for a moment when he realized Sun had Aaron.

Prophesy or foreshadowing in storytelling always comes to pass, just not always as expected. There will be a Claire/Aaron/helicoptor moment before the final episode, it just won't be what Desmond, Charlie, or we viewers anticipate. It will represent the literal truth, but there will be a twist on it.

After Eggtown I protested that poor Des was going to feel so guilty when he saw that Claire and Aaron had been ripped apart. I thought he would already be feeling responsible for Charlie's death and now he would have the added guilt of Claire and Aaron's rescue not coming to pass and thinking he sent Charlie to die for nothing.

After Cabin Fever I said that actually...Desmond probably won't bat an eyelid when he sees Aaron split up from Claire. It seems that has now become a reality.

I actually haven't seen anyone post or make a comment about this yet...so here goes...

As to why Desmond didn't ask "Where's Claire?" :

Some of you are partially right....he was distracted. But it seems to me now one has realized what he was distracted by...so I will enlighten you :)

Let's go back to the Constant shall we...who did Desmond meet in the past? I'll give you a hint...he had longer hair ;)

And now jump forward (Constant style!!)...Des is chilling on a ship, and here comes Faraday with a boat load of people. If you go back and watch, You can tell Des was focusing hardcore on Faraday.

Think about it...it would be very odd to travel back into the past, have a guy help you, then see him in the present.

That's just my opinion :)

First of all, remember when Desmond said if anything in his picture changes then the outcome will change. This could be a case of something changing in his vision of the future. Also, Desmond lied to Charlie at least once in the past (Catch-22), so who is to say that he didnt lie to Charlie about this particular outcome. Another factor may be that Des was totally focused on the C-4 wired on the ship, and was attempting to provide for everyone's safety on the boat. There is still a lot of info that has not been revealed by the TPTB. Stay tuned for Part II.

Charlie asked him if he was absolutely positive if Claire and Aaron got on the helicopter and Desmond said YES. Now it seems really crappy if Desmond got it wrong because that means he asked Charlie to give up his life for nothing.

I hope Desmond didn't lie but I hope it makes sense why he told Charlie he had to die. I don't think things are gonna end well for Desmond.

BTW. How did Desmond mininterpret a vision of seeing someone get on a helicopter? Either he saw them get on it or he didn't.

Why would he say yes to Charlie if he wasn't absolutely positive?

I'm with you. Even putting aside the excuses for his distraction for the moment, I just don't get Desmond this whole season. He's gone back to being passive and indifferent to the plight of the others. After all that time bonding with Charlie, he shows no concern for those Charlie left behind, those Desmond assured would be rescued together. He doesn't show remorse that Charlie may have died for nothing or that if he hadn't told him what he saw Charlie would still be alive and none of this would be happening. He was really the catalyst for everything we're seeing in season four and now his only concern is once again getting back to Penny. I came to care about him over season three because I thought he had the capacity to care for others. Now it's every man for himself again like in Catch-22. I hated that Desmond. He was positively evil that way he lied to Charlie and almost walked him to his death. He didn't apologize for it after, he just got angry at him like it was Charlie's fault. Now all season he's shown no concern for what he caused to happen or what has become of Claire. I blame the writers of course because Claire also became an unfeeling piece of wood but it's sucked all the emotion out of the show.

Good point about Faraday, Pyrolite.

I don't think Desmond lied to Charlie about the vision. I think significant things have changed that have altered it.

As to why he didn't ask about Claire right away, step back and look at the larger story rather than be so focused on Charlie/Claire. It would be like asking why, if Sawyer really loves Kate, when he ran into her and Jack in the woods and then he left again with Jack that he and Kate didn't have a tender goodbye moment. They had larger things on their minds and we are only seeing a snippet of what their real conversation would have been in real life. People are sometimes reduced to one or two lines of conversation in a show like this. Granted, they should be the most important one or two lines, but I'm sure they will get back to Desmond's vision and so on next season.

Desmond didn't know about the C4 yet when Sun came on board. Watch it again and notice how Des keeps looking at Daniel - that post is right about Desmond/Faraday. I'm sure.

I don't think Charlie "died for nothing", even though Claire and Aaron don't make it off the island together (at least from what we've seen). He needed to flip that switch. It set off the chain of events that eventually gets them rescued, though it seems like they more or less rescue themselves.

Let's go back to the Constant shall we...who did Desmond meet in the past? I'll give you a hint...he had longer hair ;)

And now jump forward (Constant style!!)...Des is chilling on a ship, and here comes Faraday with a boat load of people. If you go back and watch, You can tell Des was focusing hardcore on Faraday.

Think about it...it would be very odd to travel back into the past, have a guy help you, then see him in the present. That is a good point and hadn't dawned on me until I read your post. Thanks. :)

I think Desmonds desire to reunite with Penny is all he wants especially now. As we know he was almost willing to let charlie die but changed his mind last second before Charlie got the arrow in the throat. I believe he made up the story of Claire and Aaron because he knew that may be the only way to get Charlie to the looking glass . I really believe Desmond came to tearms with the fact that no matter what he did charlie was gonna die anyway and the vision of catch 22 or one he had we didn't see after shows his reuniting with Penny. So I'm not surprised he said nothing about Claire not being there he already knows she won't be, all he cares about is Penny.

I also want to add that I have a feeling that we'll have a Desmond FB to his vision that he had, and it'll show Aaron on the helicopter, in the arms of a woman.... and then the image will pan up to show Kate's face. Cut back to Desmond realizing the mistake he made.

You will never see that scene. Here's the one you will see.

Desmond and Penny...Somewhere in the conversation, Penny mentions Charlie, and how she talked to him on the radio, and where is he now...how is he...something of that nature.

Then Desmond will confess his lie. How he tricked Charlie into the Looking Glass because he (Desmond) wanted so desparetly to see her (Penny).

He lied.

I don't think Charlie "died for nothing", even though Claire and Aaron don't make it off the island together (at least from what we've seen). He needed to flip that switch. It set off the chain of events that eventually gets them rescued, though it seems like they more or less rescue themselves.

Charlies sacrifice will be reduced to nothing more than a link in the chain. It is a complete cheat in my opinion. I don't believe Charlies death was necessary and his sacrifice has been robbed of its value. I don't see why people make excuses for this. I completely sucks.

If anyone saves Claire and Aaron now it will be Jack. They are clearly setting it up as Jack's redemption story. If they've ignored Charlie's role in S4 they most certainly aren't gonna pay him any attention in S6. The way they've ignored his ring and list shows how little the writers care.

Sorry but they have ruined the entire flashes/sacrifice storyline by ignoring it completely and treating it like it is not even worthy of mentioning. The whole idea of "you're doomed no matter what you try do" angle was depressing enough to begin with.

Desmonds a coward, simple as

Desmonds a coward, simple as

I kind of agree with that. I just think Des will redeem himself in a big way before its all over. I believe his cowardice is his major character flaw and he will overcome it. After all, he has a bigger purpose in the universe, so says the time traveling ring lady (Ms. Hawking or something close to that?).

If they do show a FB of his vision and he pans up to see its not Claire, I think Charlie will be standing behind him telling him its OK and that this is what was supposed to happen. Undead Charlie does get around, ya know.:cool:

The problem with a show like Lost is that you almost have to have another Desmond centric show to find out all the stuff that's going on inside his head. What he knows and what he doesn't know. What he sees and what he doesn't see. I mean, does he even know what Michael has done? And yet, there he is working with him. Does he have to know and do we have to know everything to continue what we're doing? I'm just enjoying the show.

my question is... when did Des get his full on memory back? I know he has had flashes, but as much as I remember I dont remember him ever indicating his memory was back. so perhaps that is why he isnt saying much to losties showing up on the freighter.

Charlie's death has been largely ignored, and thats a shame. He really has done nothing to save anyone....he flicked a switch, wow. Claire and Aaron get on no chopper, his list and ring are MIA, and the freighter that he contacted has brought nothing but death and destruction. Even his hand written message to Des has gotten ignored by most, and those who did listen to it, got their butts whipped by commandos. Its not even looking like the freighter does the rescuing, since that buttload of C4 will most certainly be used to dramatic effect before seasons out : )

Charlie...I salute you, but you died for nothing. I hope you finally get some in the afterlife, perhaps with Shannon?

You know, they aren't done telling the story yet.

my question is... when did Des get his full on memory back? I know he has had flashes, but as much as I remember I dont remember him ever indicating his memory was back. so perhaps that is why he isnt saying much to losties showing up on the freighter.
THANK YOU! I read this whole thread and was going to say the same thing. I don't recall him ever mentioning that his memory was back at all.

God only knows how much I (used to) love Desmond, but something tells me very clearly that he really doesn't give a damn about the Losties, that he has no sense of fellowship and care for another person whatsoever, and that he's just waiting for his fancy girlfriend to find him... And, by the way, his girlfriend is Charles' daughter and married and much older now... But that's all kewl...


*My spidey sense tells me Penny is evil and Ben will righteously put a bullet in her head*

He was also positive that it was Penny that parachuted onto the Island, but he got that wrong too.

He can easily get a vision wrong if he doesn't see the face. Plus, these are "visions" how do we know what rules they follow, pbviously the future isn't written in stone as Desmond changed it several times by saving Charlie's life.

There's is a difference between seeing and assuming. He said he saw CLAIRE AND AARON get on the helicopter. Being as they didn't show this to us, it's all we have to go on.

In the jungle, Desmond saw "someone" hanging from a tree covered up in a suit with a helmet. He even said "someone is comming to the island." The only indication that we saw of Penny was the photocopy of the two together. SO he assumes from seeing this picture that it must be Penny. He didn't see Penny there on the island.

Where as in his vision before he sent Charlie off to die, he said he saw Claire getting into the helicopter with the baby Aaron. Not just anyone holding a baby. Claire.

I'm not trying to sound bitchy or pissy or anything. I'm sorry if I come off that way but it just doesn't make sense to me why it seems that they're changing the whole direction with Desmond's last vision.

If they make it to where Desmond was so wrong that he couldn't tell who got on that helicopter with Aaron, I'll be so mad.

There's is a difference between seeing and assuming. He said he saw CLAIRE AND AARON get on the helicopter. Being as they didn't show this to us, it's all we have to go on.

Yep both visions are exactly the same here, we didn't see the face of the parachutist, or Claire and Aaron getting on the chopper.

In the jungle, Desmond saw "someone" hanging from a tree covered up in a suit with a helmet. He even said "someone is comming to the island." The only indication that we saw of Penny was the photocopy of the two together. SO he assumes from seeing this picture that it must be Penny. He didn't see Penny there on the island.

Where as in his vision before he sent Charlie off to die, he said he saw Claire getting into the helicopter with the baby Aaron. Not just anyone holding a baby. Claire.

And how do we know that he saw Claire? If Desmond "saw" Penny because of his love for her and his photo, so he made the parachutist Penny, how do we know that he didn't do the same for Claire? He knows that Aaron is Claire's baby, so in his vision, he sees a woman holding Aaron, and automatically assumes it's Claire. It's the same situation.

Charlie asked Desmond if he thought the parachutist was his girl Penny, and Desmond responded that he hoped it was before but now he knows it, so it could be the same situation with Claire. He has his vision, and in the vision he sees Aaron getting on a chopper being held by a woman. By the time he tells Charlie his vision, he now has pictured Claire as the woman who's holding Aaron.

I'm not trying to sound vincenty or pissy or anything. I'm sorry if I come off that way but it just doesn't make sense to me why it seems that they're changing the whole direction with Desmond's last vision.

If they make it to where Desmond was so wrong that he couldn't tell who got on that helicopter with Aaron, I'll be so mad.

How do we know they've changed Desmond's vision or that they've forgotten about it? Because it hasn't been mentioned? People just need to have some patience and wait. We're not going to get all the answers right away, I'm sure it will be dealt with in time. After 4 seasons, people should be used to waiting for answers to mysteries. Patience, people, patience.......

You know, they aren't done telling the story yet.
Bingo! I love Des.

How do we know they've changed Desmond's vision or that they've forgotten about it? Because it hasn't been mentioned? People just need to have some patience and wait. We're not going to get all the answers right away, I'm sure it will be dealt with in time. After 4 seasons, people should be used to waiting for answers to mysteries. Patience, people, patience.......

The problem is, there are only two seasons left. Two short seasons with only 17 episodes each. That is not really a lot of time for them to try and answer all the questions we have. Sure, they have been giving us more answers lately, but with every answer comes ten more questions. I highly doubt we are going to get answers for even half the mysteries in the time we have left. We have been patient long enough, and they need to start tying up all the loose ends now rather than later.

That being said, I posted in a thread for the last episode which talked about Desmond's decision to remain on the freighter instead of going back to the island with Sayid. I think what I said there equally applies here:

Charlie chose to go because Desmond told him it was the only way for his vision of 'Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter' to come true. Now, I'm not saying that this might not happen sometime down the road (Kate and Aaron come back to the island, and Claire, assuming she is still alive, then leaves with Aaron?), but based on all the evidence we currently have, this is not going to happen.

So either Desmond lied, or his vision was invalidated in some other way. Either of these scenarios leaves Charlie dying for no good reason. So far, nothing good has come to any of the Losties from Charlie deactivating the jamming signal. The only thing good to happen to anyone is Desmond being in contact with Penny. Desmond jumped at the chance to go to the freighter, and now he refuses to go back and help the people who got him there, all because his Penny is coming for him. So tell me again how Charlie's death served any other purpose than to maybe reunite Des and Penny?

Holy cow!

I believe Desmond had a vision. This vision included Charlie drowning. It may have included the brief glimpse he had of Penny on the monitor. So for Desmond, Charlie drowning = him contacting Penny. There is one important thing in Desmond's life - Penny. She is his driving force. So while Desmond felt compelled to repeatedly save Charlie, I believe he finally had the incentive he needed to NOT save him. Penny.

Now how could he get Charlie to willingly go to his death? Make it about rescuing Claire and Aaron. The part about Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter, in my opinion, is a lie. A lie told by Desmond to steel Charlie's resolve and make Desmond's vision come true.

Now... This could have put an evil spin on Des - but he did offer to take Charlie's place at the last moment. Charlie knocked him out.

Point to consider - Desmond seemed surprised to see a) the station not flooded and b) Charlie still alive after he dove down to The Looking Glass.

That bit did make me wonder if Des had been telling Charlie the truth - but in telling Charlie about the vision, he caused it to skew.

But that gets too complicated for me. I think Des lied, and eventually, we will see him torture himself about it.

Again, he's probably assuming Claire's coming on the boat next trip.
er, wouldn't he be assuming that Claire's coming on the helicopter?
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So I'm not surprised he said nothing about Claire not being there he already knows she won't be, all he cares about is Penny.

If all he cared about was Penny, then why would he go to sacrifice his life so that Charlie can live and be with Claire, requiring Charlie to whack him on the head?

I think it's going to happen exactly the way Desmond saw it. Charlie set in motion a sequence of events that will end in Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter and leaving the island. He just failed to mention that Aaron was 3 or 4 years old in the vision.

Holy cow!

I believe Desmond had a vision. This vision included Charlie drowning. It may have included the brief glimpse he had of Penny on the monitor. So for Desmond, Charlie drowning = him contacting Penny. There is one important thing in Desmond's life - Penny. She is his driving force. So while Desmond felt compelled to repeatedly save Charlie, I believe he finally had the incentive he needed to NOT save him. Penny.

Now how could he get Charlie to willingly go to his death? Make it about rescuing Claire and Aaron. The part about Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter, in my opinion, is a lie. A lie told by Desmond to steel Charlie's resolve and make Desmond's vision come true.

Now... This could have put an evil spin on Des - but he did offer to take Charlie's place at the last moment. Charlie knocked him out.

Point to consider - Desmond seemed surprised to see a) the station not flooded and b) Charlie still alive after he dove down to The Looking Glass.

That bit did make me wonder if Des had been telling Charlie the truth - but in telling Charlie about the vision, he caused it to skew.

But that gets too complicated for me. I think Des lied, and eventually, we will see him torture himself about it.

A great post, but will we?? Because some fine time had passed, and I don't see him repenting??? I used to adore his character, but as time passes, he only gets repulsive to me. His line abuot waiting for Penny on the freighter is so ridiculous it could not have even been put there by accident... It was supposed to show us something about the character, and it showed us that he only cared about himself... And, honestly, even if he does reget it, I'm kinda tired of the whole redemptive story concept.... As in REALLY tired. I love this show more than any other, and that shall be the case for the rest of my life I think, but this is the first time I started to get genuinely annoyed... While people slam characters like Ben's (I'm not even gonna say it, 'cause you already know how important and brilliant he is in every sense), they refuse to believe that maybe, possibly, probably characters like Desmond's and Penelope's really aren't as great as we thought.

I think it's going to happen exactly the way Desmond saw it. Charlie set in motion a sequence of events that will end in Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter and leaving the island. He just failed to mention that Aaron was 3 or 4 years old in the vision.

You think the O6 (or some) will go back to the island WITH AARON? I find it a little hard to believe that Jack (his uncle) and Kate (his new mom) would bring that child back to that scary place. IMO, the only chance of that happening is if the "real world" becomes so dangerous for the O6 that they basically have no choice AND they find the island again (through the Orchid or some other means of space/time travel that Ben utilizes).

Good point. If they return to the island with Aaron, it would only be because the island had specifically called Aaron back also or because the island had convinced Jack that Aaron had to go back to be reunited with Claire.

You think the O6 (or some) will go back to the island WITH AARON? I find it a little hard to believe that Jack (his uncle) and Kate (his new mom) would bring that child back to that scary place. IMO, the only chance of that happening is if the "real world" becomes so dangerous for the O6 that they basically have no choice AND they find the island again (through the Orchid or some other means of space/time travel that Ben utilizes).
I definitely think they will bring Aaron back to the island. Remember Eko saying, "Aaron was a great man. His brother Moses had great difficulty speaking, and so Aaron spoke for him." I think Aaron is destined to become the one who speaks for Jacob.

Of course, then he wouldn't be leaving the island again, would he? Oh well, I guess we'll see.

Bringing a three year old child back to such a dangerous environment is preposterous. And what about Sun - will she be bringing her infant daughter too or just dumping her on a baby sitter? But whenever the plot gets nonsensical they just say "It's what the island wants!" and for some reason nobody argues with the islands psychotic whims.

he lied to her, cause he didnt want to tell her she would get separated from her child

And how do we know that he saw Claire? If Desmond "saw" Penny because of his love for her and his photo, so he made the parachutist Penny, how do we know that he didn't do the same for Claire? He knows that Aaron is Claire's baby, so in his vision, he sees a woman holding Aaron, and automatically assumes it's Claire. It's the same situation.

No it's not. He didn't say for certain that it was Penny until he climbed over Hurley, grabbed the pck from the tree and found the book with the photocopy pic. Then he said he was certain. He's assuming Penny is there because of the pic in the book.

We don't know that he saw Claire. We know he says that he's positive that he saw Claire get on a helicopter with Aaron. From what he tells Charlie he's not assuming that Claire gets on the helicopter with Aaron, he positive that he sees Claire and Aaron get on.


The only way to settle this is for the writers to let us see the actual vision that Desmond had before he told Charlie he had to die. If they had shown it to us when it happened, we'd be discussing another aspect of it.




Charlie asked Desmond if he thought the parachutist was his girl Penny, and Desmond responded that he hoped it was before but now he knows it, so it could be the same situation with Claire. He has his vision, and in the vision he sees Aaron getting on a chopper being held by a woman. By the time he tells Charlie his vision, he now has pictured Claire as the woman who's holding Aaron.

Desmond didn't have his vision of Claire and Aaron until after his Catch 22 vision. I can understand why Desmond would hope it was Penny. He was wrong I might add. But why would he hope it was Claire holding Aaron when he knew that in order for the events to happen Charlie had to die? If he was just hoping that it was Claire then he flat out lied to Charlie because he said he was positive.






How do we know they've changed Desmond's vision or that they've forgotten about it? Because it hasn't been mentioned? People just need to have some patience and wait. We're not going to get all the answers right away, I'm sure it will be dealt with in time. After 4 seasons, people should be used to waiting for answers to mysteries. Patience, people, patience.......

I agree with you on this one. But in the mean time what else is there to do while waiting for those freakin' answers?! :biggrin:

I've read that someone said because Widmore changed the rules on Ben and killed Alex, that maybe this why Claire took a detour to Jacob's cabin instead of going to the beach with Sawyer and Miles. This might an explaination but how is this relevant? :confused: Desmond had his visions before Alex was killed. He was even done with them before the freighter people even got on the island with execption of Naomi.

I'm of the opinion that Desmond did see a vision of Claire and infant Aaron on the helicopter--the same way he saw Charlie dying from lightning strike, Charlie drowning trying to save Claire, and Charlie with an arrow in his throat. Knowing that Penny didn't send the boat, Desmond has deliberately changed the "picture on the box" the way he saved Charlie in the other examples. He's probably been hoping his vision won't come true--look at what he's seen of the Kahana. Women throwing themselves overboard and no one cares, bloodstains on the walls, canned lima beans the best food available, no engine and communications flaky, is this a safe place to bring Charlie's high-maintenance girlfriend and her baby?:rolleyes: The three brain cells that aren't taken up dealing with the current situation are probably cursing him for ever thinking helicopter rescues were a good thing and telling Charlie so.

I'm of the opinion that Desmond did see a vision of Claire and infant Aaron on the helicopter--the same way he saw Charlie dying from lightning strike, Charlie drowning trying to save Claire, and Charlie with an arrow in his throat. Knowing that Penny didn't send the boat, Desmond has deliberately changed the "picture on the box" the way he saved Charlie in the other examples. He's probably been hoping his vision won't come true--look at what he's seen of the Kahana. Women throwing themselves overboard and no one cares, bloodstains on the walls, canned lima beans the best food available, no engine and communications flaky, is this a safe place to bring Charlie's high-maintenance girlfriend and her baby?:rolleyes: The three brain cells that aren't taken up dealing with the current situation are probably cursing him for ever thinking helicopter rescues were a good thing and telling Charlie so.

LOL. That's a funny way of putting it. Dude, maybe you're onto something. But Desmond didn't know in the beginning what being on the frieghter would be like. Besides Desmond didn't say Claire and Aaron would get on the frieghter. He said they'd get on a helicopter that would take off and leave the island. No mention of the frieghter to Charlie.

BTW, I was kinda suspicious about the whole flip the switch thing with Desmond. As we saw, Charlie didn't flip a switch, he pressed a series of numbers on a keypad.

How can you confuse a switch with a keypad? :34853_huh:

No it's not. He didn't say for certain that it was Penny until he climbed over Hurley, grabbed the pck from the tree and found the book with the photocopy pic. Then he said he was certain. He's assuming Penny is there because of the pic in the book.

I don't see any difference because we don't know Desmond's original vision, in either case. Either way Desmond could have thought he saw Penny AND Claire, and in actuality, he may have, how do we know? He may have actually seen Claire and Aaron getting on the plane, but it wasn't really Claire, his personal feelings toward them both could have skewed the actual vision. Again how do we know? We don't, so to get all in a tiff because the vision hasn't come true yet is silly. If people want to think Desmond sacrificed Charlie just to see his Penny, so be it. For the record, Desmond was willing to go to the The Looking Glass instead of Charlie, but I guess he was just bluffing.



We don't know that he saw Claire. We know he says that he's positive that he saw Claire get on a helicopter with Aaron. From what he tells Charlie he's not assuming that Claire gets on the helicopter with Aaron, he positive that he sees Claire and Aaron get on.

Again, he may indeed have, but how do we know that the vision wasn't tainted by his personal feelings? Again, we don't the visions are an anomaly and a wildcard, so to discuss what happened in one that we didn't even see is fruitless really.

Desmond didn't have his vision of Claire and Aaron until after his Catch 22 vision. I can understand why Desmond would hope it was Penny. He was wrong I might add. But why would he hope it was Claire holding Aaron when he knew that in order for the events to happen Charlie had to die? If he was just hoping that it was Claire then he flat out lied to Charlie because he said he was positive.

Yep he was wrong because he saved Charlie's life, which is what caused his vision to be wrong. At least that's the general consensus anyway. How do we know that something didn't change with the TTLG vision? Desmond had no idea that Penny would call and Charlie would talk to her, because if he did, I'm sure he would have been in that room instead of getting the diving equipment. So maybe Charlie's discussion with Penny is what caused the changed. Again who knows, but to call Desmond a liar before we know the final outcome is a little premature in my opinion.


I agree with you on this one. But in the mean time what else is there to do while waiting for those freakin' answers?! :biggrin:

Well unfortunately, we might be waiting awhile for that answer.;)

I've read that someone said because Widmore changed the rules on Ben and killed Alex, that maybe this why Claire took a detour to Jacob's cabin instead of going to the beach with Sawyer and Miles. This might an explaination but how is this relevant? :confused: Desmond had his visions before Alex was killed. He was even done with them before the freighter people even got on the island with execption of Naomi.

I hadn't heard that one. I'm leaning toward Desmond misinterpreting his vision and it wasn't Claire or Penny calling "The Looking Glass" and talking to Charlie caused this to happen. Claire went with Christian because she was with Sawyer in the jungle. Why was she there at that moment? Because she was hiking back from New Otherton. Why was she at New Otherton? Because Hurley said he was going with Locke because he was listening to Charlie's "Not Penny's boat". If Penny wouldn't have called, Charlie wouldn't have written that on his hand, and then Hurley and Claire probably wouldn't have gone with Locke. Just a thought.;)

I hadn't heard that one. I'm leaning toward Desmond misinterpreting his vision and it wasn't Claire or Penny calling "The Looking Glass" and talking to Charlie caused this to happen. Claire went with Christian because she was with Sawyer in the jungle. Why was she there at that moment? Because she was hiking back from New Otherton. Why was she at New Otherton? Because Hurley said he was going with Locke because he was listening to Charlie's "Not Penny's boat". If Penny wouldn't have called, Charlie wouldn't have written that on his hand, and then Hurley and Claire probably wouldn't have gone with Locke. Just a thought.;)

I'm a stubborn kinda gal. :biggrin: Didn't know if you could tell or not. ;)

I have to say that changing what Desmond saw because of Penny calling is going to cheat a alot of Charlie fans who have been waiting for this rescue to happen. I'm including myself in that category. :wavey:

Desmond should've never stopped pressing the button. Hey! :69: There's an idea. It's all Desmond's fault. The crash. The hatch imploding. The frieghter people finding the island. Damn Desmond!

:24:

Anywho. I'm just really looking forward to knowing what the hell is going on! :Jumpy:

I'm a stubborn kinda gal. :biggrin: Didn't know if you could tell or not. ;)

I have to say that changing what Desmond saw because of Penny calling is going to cheat a alot of Charlie fans who have been waiting for this rescue to happen. I'm including myself in that category. :wavey:

Desmond should've never stopped pressing the button. Hey! :69: There's an idea. It's all Desmond's fault. The crash. The hatch imploding. The frieghter people finding the island. Damn Desmond!

:24:

Anywho. I'm just really looking forward to knowing what the hell is going on! :Jumpy:

Stupid work laptop, just ate my post, I'll try to remember what I typed.....:frown:

LOL, don't worry, there's nothing worng with being stubborn, I'm a tad stubborn some people say.;) I'm your prototypical Taurus, so stubborness is one of my inherent qualities, but as long as we keep our discussion intense but civil, where's the harm right?:biggrin:

I would love to know what's going on with Desmond's vision too, and I'm sure it's hasn't been forgotten about, it's just there's been more pressing things to deal with at the moment. I know, that's sacriligious to the Charlie fans out there, so don't all beat me up at once! I am a Charlie fan too and hated it when he died, but I'm a Des fan too, so I don't think Charlie died for nothing and Des used him. Really, there's gotta be a good explanation right? There's just gotta......if I say it enough times it'll come true, I'm sure!:msn-wink:

If anyone should be blamed for the button stopped being pushed, it is LOCKE!!!! He's the one who broke the computer and then caused Desmond to turn the key. But if Locke hadn't broke the computer, Desmond wouldn't have triggered the fail safe causing him to jump, and he wouldn't have had his visions to save Charlie's life over and over. Oh what a tangled web we weave....:confused:

Although I guess we could blame Des for bringing the Freighties to the Island since he did have the vision that led to the expedition that found Naomi who had the Sat phone. But then Locke is the reason (as I explained above:biggrin: ) for Des having these visions, so maybe he's to blame, but then Sayid fixed the Sat phone, but then Jack called the Freighties.......so who's fault is it again???:confused: :biggrin:

Anyway, unfortunately, I doubt we'll find out about Des's vision this season since it doesn't look like it's gonna be included in the final 2 hours, so it appears we'll have to wait until at least next January for an answer at the earliest. On the bright side, we'll have 8 months to debate this. We won't be sick of this by then will we?;)

Actually what would we do if we would have been in Desmonds position? He had to decided between a bad and an even worser thing. So actually there was nothing really good at the end. But time will show us the truth (it's out there).

People just need to have some patience and wait. We're not going to get all the answers right away, I'm sure it will be dealt with in time. After 4 seasons, people should be used to waiting for answers to mysteries. Patience, people, patience.......

You're right about that, todd! The answers are more fun when we do have to wait for them too.

As for the purpose in Charlie dying, regardless of what Desmond saw or thought he saw, the only way Aaron would be separated from Claire is when Charlie is no longer around to protect them. We have two things from the past in play: the vision of Claire and Aaron on the helicopter, and the prophesy that Aaron shouldn't be raised by another. I don't know what happened to Claire at this point, but whatever is going on couldn't have happened with Charlie still in the picture. The Aaron-with-Uncle-Jack-in-LA story is just unfolding, and I'm curious where they're going with it.

It' s like Hurley said "Dude that guy can see the future"

I just posted on a similar thread... Hmmmm, lots of people think that Desmond may have seen a woman he mistook for Claire with Aaron board a helicopter.
What if he actually mistook another baby for Aaron with Claire? Maybe Claire stays on island and has someone else's baby (Charlie's or Jacob's or #15 baby cloned from material they took from Aaron when he was in utero???).
Maybe a year from now he does see "Claire and her baby" get into a helicopter.
Crazy thought!

Rather than questioning the motivations behind what Desmond saw, didn't see, or maybe misinterpreted what he saw in his vision of Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter, I simply reconcile the overall objectives of all his visions with the experience he had with the jeweler Ms. Hawking when he tried to buy Penny an engagement ring.

If you recall, this is the encounter where we learn the notion of how the universe "course corrects" to prevent people from straying too far from their respective fates. Ms. Hawking tells Desmond that he wasn't supposed to buy the engagement ring, that he was supposed to get cold feet and abandon Penny anyway. She also further went on in using the example of a man that she predicted would die. If she were to go ahead and save the guy, she would only be delaying the inevitable. If he weren't going to die by the way she predicted, he was only going end up dying soon thereafter by some other means. Hence, the universe finds a way to course correct the chain of events to produce the intended fate.

Drawing from this experience, we see that Desmond has numerous visions of Charlie dying. But rather than heeding the lesson learned from Ms. Hawking, Desmond continues to delay Charlie's fate: He builds a lightning rod on the tent to save Charlie from getting electrocuted; he swims out to rescue Claire in the ocean although it really is a twofold rescue in that he saves Charlie from drowning himself; and finally, he pushes Charlie away from taking an arrow right into the throat. The point here is that Desmond has had numerous visions that didn't come true - but the fact of the matter is that Charlie had to die ... and eventually his fate came to fruition in the Looking Glass.

So why the uproar over the vision that Desmond had about Claire getting on the helicopter with Aaron? Rather than interpreting the vision literally for what he saw, I think the main point about it is that Desmond envisions Aaron and Claire leaving the island. That is their fate. Like the numerous visions that didn't come true regarding Charlie's death, it would seem to me that Claire and Aaron finding rescue off the island would be an inevitable fate - whether it be by a helicopter, a raft, a teleporter, or what have you. Right now, it just so happens that the helicopter vision isn't panning out because it must be apparent that some outside intervention has delayed that particular outcome as Desmond saw it. (But whatever this intervention is is probably a subject for a whole other debate. But for starters, maybe Sawyer wasn't meant to pass off Aaron to Kate the way he did. There's probably a number of scenarios that could have prevented the "Claire and Aaron on the helicopter" scenario from playing out.)

With that said, I will give Desmond the benefit of the doubt on what he envisioned regarding Claire and Aaron as being true. It's not so much the how of his vision, it is the why: their making it off the island is the fate that Desmond sees. Like Charlie not dying by electrocution, drowning, or arrow, so too is the vision that Claire and Aaron not getting on the helicopter together is just incidental. So if that's the ultimate outcome for mother and child, then we should just sit tight with hopeful patience and wait for it to pan out. Perhaps Aaron has already seen his fate played out since he's now off-island; I guess the upside here is that we can infer that Claire is still alive and well on the island - and that her anticipated reunion with Aaron off-island is a fate that we can all look forward to. And once that comes to fruition, we will have seen that Charlie didn't die in vain - and that Desmond was honorable in his intent in describing what he saw.

Good post, HERMIT. Intelligent and well thought out.