Ben told Jack to take everyone back to the island, including John's dead body. I think it's safe to infer from this that John will come back to life once he's back on the island.

Kinda like Jack's dad...

So, can we take this as confirmation that Christian has been on the island before? And if so, wouldn't that mean his dead body was definitely brought back purposely in order to revive him?

Any other thoughts?

I agree that Locke will be healed again once he is back on the island.
And I guess we can assume that Christian Shepherd can and did survive that explosion.

you do not "come back to life" on the island if you are dead. Your "spirit" or "ghost" does survive on the island.

So we may see Locke again the same as we see Christian.....as an "ghost."

I just don't know anything anymore!! :(

you do not "come back to life" on the island if you are dead. Your "spirit" or "ghost" does survive on the island.

So we may see Locke again the same as we see Christian.....as an "ghost."

But Christian's body disappeared from the casket. Either the "ghost" we're seeing is that actual body, or the others stole it, or a polar bear ate it. :biggrin:

Either way, I think the island needed his body.

Hey... they never did explain the polar bear.... or how the other polar bear skeleton managed to show up in a desert. And smokey.... we know he's a "guard system"... but WHAT the fuzzy pajamas is it... literally? Smoke can't pick crap up!

I just don't know anything anymore!! :(

I hear you. I'm feeling like a deer in headlights.

Christian becomes more and more puzzling. Now he's an all-powerful oracular ghost. Before, he seemed pretty invested in keeping his job after his drunken screw-up and, when that didn't work, going on his final alcoholic binge and daughter-finding mission in Australia The interests of the living, pre-island Christian just didn't seem very cosmic.

you do not "come back to life" on the island if you are dead. Your "spirit" or "ghost" does survive on the island.

So we may see Locke again the same as we see Christian.....as an "ghost."

This is an insider reference to Carlton Cuse's third favorite film, 1990's "Ghost Dad."

Hey... they never did explain the polar bear.... or how the other polar bear skeleton managed to show up in a desert. And smokey.... we know he's a "guard system"... but WHAT the fuzzy pajamas is it... literally? Smoke can't pick crap up!



Smoke cant pick things up, but Smokey can. Eko , and one of Keamys men.
As for the polar bear here is a good explanation.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=96775

I just don't know anything anymore!! :(


I couldn't agree with this more! This needs to me my sig! lol

Ben told Jack to take everyone back to the island, including John's dead body. I think it's safe to infer from this that John will come back to life once he's back on the island.

Kinda like Jack's dad...

So, can we take this as confirmation that Christian has been on the island before? And if so, wouldn't that mean his dead body was definitely brought back purposely in order to revive him?

Any other thoughts?

I respectfully disagree. I don't think that proves anymore that Christain has been on the Island then it does that Yemi had previously been on the Island. He was dead when he arrived and was alive to Eko. I think the dead are manifested by Smokey. I do think John will be alive again in body, but it will be Smokey controling him.

There is one podcast (sorry, I don't know which one but it was from this season I'm pretty sure) in which Darlton clarify the different categories of dead, undead, manifestations of Smoke Monster, dreams, and apparitions. That might be helpful to hear again if anyone can figure out which one it was. Christian was definitely classified as "undead," not a manifestation of the Smoke Monster. I wonder if Jacob needs a body to inhabit in order to move about outside of the cabin. In that case, Locke could easily become another body for Jacob to use. The only way I could imagine Locke actually being alive on the island when they go back would be if somehow the island is able to move back in time to a time when he was really alive and had not left the island or been killed.

Regardless of whether Locke is in some way reanimated when/if they manage to bring his body back with them, we ARE assuming that his demise is far enough in the future that we'll see the regular, real Locke alive and well in island time next season, right? My only consolation after seeing my beloved Terry O'Quinn in tha casket (and I guess I was the only viewer who was surprised!) is that the scene took place 3 years in the future! He's not dead yet!

There are two forces on the island. One was reincarnted in Christian, probably the dark one. Jacob, or the light one, will be reincarnated in Locke when he is brought back to the island dead. That was the whole purpose of Alpert's test. To check if he could be Jacob's host.

Fierro, that makes sense to me except that didn't Locke fail just about every test that Richard gave to him? He picked the knife, he didn't want to go to science camp, and he didn't kill his father like Ben told him he had to do to be accepted. He did, on the other hand, follow the advice of Matthew Abbadon to go walkabout. Where do you see Abbadon fitting into your idea about two forces? By the way, why in the world would anyone name the dark force Christian Shepherd? Just sayin'.

Fierro, that makes sense to me except that didn't Locke fail just about every test that Richard gave to him? He picked the knife, he didn't want to go to science camp, and he didn't kill his father like Ben told him he had to do to be accepted. He did, on the other hand, follow the advice of Matthew Abbadon to go walkabout. Where do you see Abbadon fitting into your idea about two forces? By the way, why in the world would anyone name the dark force Christian Shepherd? Just sayin'.

Well, it could be the other way around! That's the old question: WHO is the bad one and WHO is the good one?

One of them is trapped. It seems to be Jacob, right? Christian and Jacob were together in Jacob's cabin.... Christian can go outside. Jacob can't.

So what would be more shocking or interesting for a fantasy storyline?
The bad force being trapped waiting to be unleashed so it can 'take over the world'?

OR

The good force being trapped hoping to be released so it can finally put a stop to its nemesis once and for all, saving humanity?

Personally, I'd prefer the good force hoping to be released so that it can put a stop to its nemesis, but that's just me.

Two forces makes sense to me, but I think Jacob is the good one and Christian Shepherd is his body to inhabit when he needs to be out and about.

Darlton has been deliberately vague about Matthew Abbadon and his allegiences, so I'm not sure when he encouraged Locke to go to Australia whether that was on Jacob's behalf or some other entity.

If Locke returns to the Island as a body (like Christian Shepherd did), I wonder if Jacob will inhabit Locke's body and Christian will appear in his coffin again?

But Christian's body disappeared from the casket. Either the "ghost" we're seeing is that actual body, or the others stole it, or a polar bear ate it. :biggrin:

Either way, I think the island needed his body.

Agreed. He is "undead" in that his actual body seems to be in use. Whether or not Christian is really Christian is another question. But in light of the chance that Locke's body will reanimate once on the island... it seems that Christian may indeed be Christian. I think we'll know for sure if Locke is Locke.

I think it's hard to tell if Christian on the island is really himself because we don't know him well enough, but when he introduced himself as Christian, why wouldn't he then be Christian? Locke didn't know the live version, so why lie?

Personally, I'd prefer the good force hoping to be released so that it can put a stop to its nemesis, but that's just me.

Two forces makes sense to me, but I think Jacob is the good one and Christian Shepherd is his body to inhabit when he needs to be out and about.

Darlton has been deliberately vague about Matthew Abbadon and his allegiences, so I'm not sure when he encouraged Locke to go to Australia whether that was on Jacob's behalf or some other entity.

If Locke returns to the Island as a body (like Christian Shepherd did), I wonder if Jacob will inhabit Locke's body and Christian will appear in his coffin again?
The thing is that it seems that Christian and Jacob are probably not the same 'entity'. Some people are arriving at the conclusion that whoever is using Christian's body is fooling many people on the island by making them believe he is 'Jacob'. One of his victims might be even Ben.

When Hurley visited the cabin for the first time, taking a peek inside, he saw two persons inside: Christian Sheppard seated on the rocking chair AND another person who scared Hurley away. Everything points in the direction that this other person was actually Jacob. So there you go, they are separate entities.

There are two forces on the island. One was reincarnted in Christian, probably the dark one. Jacob, or the light one, will be reincarnated in Locke when he is brought back to the island dead. That was the whole purpose of Alpert's test. To check if he could be Jacob's host.

Oooh! Creepy! I'm not going to host anyone! No one would want me, anyway, but still! YUK! I sure hope they don't go this way.

What I find interesting is that Jack was the one who decided to burn the Fuselage and all the dead bodies inside. Sayid said they shouldn't. Than, Jack BURIES the Marshall who arrested Kate. Why bury him and not burn him with the others? His answer to Kate was, "I had to do it." What does that mean? His body was decomposing in the ground.
When Kate and Jack dug it back up to get the key out of his wallet, his body smelled.

What this showed to me is that burned or buried the bodies on the Island die.

Remember Daniel was asking Char to test his memory. The memory test reminded me of Richard testing little Locke. I think MAYBE Locke has done all the Island stuff before, but messed up. So, Richard is going back in time/conscience travel to try and get Locke to do things the right way, this time. Like Desmond said, this time, I'm going to do it right. My question, are the survivors ACTUALLY ON the Island or are they traveling in their conscience? Like Desmond? So, in other words, OFF Island it is 2005 and on Island it is 2004. So, Jack is sleeping (like Des did on the freighter) in 2005?, but thinks he is in 2004? Just a weird idea, I'm probably wrong.

I'm not really sure how the island, or whatever it is that "possesses" Christian, used or uses his body. Yemi's and Christian's bodies both disappeared, and that fact has been said by tptb to be significant. Yemi was reduced to skeletal remains, yet appeared to Eko as a very live person. Christian was more than likely embalmed and/or somewhat decayed, yet he shows no signs of having ever been dead in his appearance.

Why are the bodies gone? I don't know. Are they needed to "replicate" the person physically and "mentally", ie access their memories or something?

I've been thinking recently that it seems like there is some kind of advantage to dying off-island: if you die off the island and are brought there you can seemingly walk around again. LOTS of people have died on the island, but none of them seem as interactive and persistent after their deaths as Christian (or Yemi for that matter - I'm guessing he died before the plane crashed on the island). It mirrors what happens with unborn children: if you're conceived on the island you're in trouble, but of you're conceived OFF the island you are ok (like Alex and Aaron). I have no idea if the two things are connected, but hey, my brain is running on empty a bit after the finale. ;)

I'm not really sure how the island, or whatever it is that "possesses" Christian, used or uses his body. Yemi's and Christian's bodies both disappeared, and that fact has been said by tptb to be significant. Yemi was reduced to skeletal remains, yet appeared to Eko as a very live person. Christian was more than likely embalmed and/or somewhat decayed, yet he shows no signs of having ever been dead in his appearance....

Did Yemi's body disappear? I thought Eko found the bones and buried him? I'm running on empty, too!
What if Christian didn't die? Those spiders could come in handy! Remember them? Why mention them if we were not going to see them again? I know that Darlton said Christian was "undead" somewhere, but what does that mean? Should I really trust them?

Anyway, I think everything ties together and I'm trying to look for the right buttons to fit into the holes. I just think I putting my shirt on wrong, still. Wrong button holes. :biggrin:

According to Lostpedia (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Yemi):
Eko burned the plane on a pyre, saying the Psalm 23 (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Psalm_23). His body goes missing sometime between "The 23rd Psalm (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/The_23rd_Psalm)" and "The Cost of Living (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Cost_of_Living)".And Yemi appears in several dreams, even in Locke's dreams... even though Locke has never met Yemi in life. Kind of like Locke seeing Christian, even though he never met him.

Has Christian appeared to anyone in their dreams? Or has he just "haunted" them while waking? Not sure what that would mean...

Originally Posted by Fierro
There are two forces on the island. One was reincarnted in Christian, probably the dark one. Jacob, or the light one, will be reincarnated in Locke when he is brought back to the island dead. That was the whole purpose of Alpert's test. To check if he could be Jacob's host.



I think the purpose of Richard's test was to see if Locke remembered who he was yet. He didn't remember that the knife wasn't his which made Richard exclaim that he wasn't ready for his special school yet. Remember when Abaddon was talking to Locke about how he had gone on a walkabout ... then he found out who he was .... much more than an orderly. Whoever Locke is/was is who the Others welcomed home.

There seems to be the distinction between being buried and not being buried. Neither Christian nor Yemi were buried (though Yemi's remains were buried eventually... and he hasn't been seen since).

I think the purpose of Richard's test was to see if Locke remembered who he was yet. He didn't remember that the knife wasn't his which made Richard exclaim that he wasn't ready for his special school yet. Remember when Abaddon was talking to Locke about how he had gone on a walkabout ... then he found out who he was .... much more than an orderly. Whoever Locke is/was is who the Others welcomed home.

There seems to be the distinction between being buried and not being buried. Neither Christian nor Yemi were buried (though Yemi's remains were buried eventually... and he hasn't been seen since).
I believe Richard's test was clearly a reincarnation test, ala Dalai Lama. That's how they pick him nowadays. There is even a movie coming out which depict a very similar scene to the one on LOST.

So we may see Locke again the same as we see Christian.....as an "ghost."
But that would imply that Locke is no more special than Christian. So I think we will see him as something more. Don't know what.
100%
I believe Richard's test was clearly a reincarnation test, ala Dalai Lama. That's how they pick him nowadays. There is even a movie coming out which depict a very similar scene to the one on LOST.
If they really are going the reincarnation route (which is hard to imagine going well, but I have faith), what I'm thinking is that John picked the item that had belong to him (obviously, as John is all about knives), and that that person was a force for evil on the island in the past. That explains Richard's rather severe reaction. He had found the "bad guy." However... consistent I think with the same Buddhist ideology, a lifetime of suffering purified John's soul, so that he is just as powerful as he was in a previous life, but now he is good as well.

Here is a question that is relevant to this discussion:

If the Island has the power to prevent people from dying (e.g. Michael, Ben, Widmore, even Locke at one time, Jack apparently, anyone else?), then doesn't that mean that the Island is done with Locke at some point in the next 3 years?

Also, I don't think that Richard has the ability to go back and change Locke's future due to the "course correction" device invented by the writers. It says that you cannot permanently change outcomes, only for a short time.

But that would imply that Locke is no more special than Christian. So I think we will see him as something more. Don't know what.
100%

If they really are going the reincarnation route (which is hard to imagine going well, but I have faith), what I'm thinking is that John picked the item that had belong to him (obviously, as John is all about knives), and that that person was a force for evil on the island in the past. That explains Richard's rather severe reaction. He had found the "bad guy." However... consistent I think with the same Buddhist ideology, a lifetime of suffering purified John's soul, so that he is just as powerful as he was in a previous life, but now he is good as well.
I liked that! So Richard realized that Locke was perhaps the right 'host' for the dark force...
But the problem is that he kept coming back for John. Did he think he could change him? I mean Richard knew that Locke had the 'gift', meaning that he can be host for either the good or the bad force? The question is ' which one is which?

If we believe that Malkin's prophecy is the right 'path', Christian would be the bad force, because he did everything he could to have Aaron being raised by another, OFF the island...


Why then didn't this force get inside Locke after they crashed, then? I believe we have the answer: the host needs to be dead upon arriving at the island.
Obviously Christian was the right host also. I wonder if he had ever been on the island before? Were things arranged by someone in order to make sure that Christian ended up on the island????

Ghost Christian is hard to reconcile with flesh-and-blood Christian, who seemed all too entangled in the mortal coil. He was a struggling, lost soul, who also had a great deal of nobility in him, but there didn't seem to be anything "spiritual" about him.

Christian the spirit has a very different personality, mindset and interests. Yet I think Christian the man IS in there somewhere, based on Ghost Christian's special interest in Jack (So It Begins), Claire and Aaron.

So it seems to me most likely that Ghost Christian is a melded personality, retaining the memories and loyalties of Christian the man while also acting as an omniscient island oracle. In other words, the body has been possessed, but Christian is still there as part of Ghost Christian.

Ben told Jack to take everyone back to the island, including John's dead body. I think it's safe to infer from this that John will come back to life once he's back on the island.

Kinda like Jack's dad...

So, can we take this as confirmation that Christian has been on the island before? And if so, wouldn't that mean his dead body was definitely brought back purposely in order to revive him?

Any other thoughts?

What if Christian was genetically enhanced and so can't die? Like Widmore and Ben? Like Locke? Give them a shot and whoa! Alive again!

When the plane crashed Sayid told Kate it was impossible for them to have survived. What if they didn't, but Richard gave them a shot? Just those that have been genetically enhanced... my list? Perhaps it isn't enough to match Jacob's list but I think POSSIBLY some of them coud be Sun, Jack, Kate, Aaron, Hurley, Sayid, Michael and Walt. I'm also thinking Vincent was as well.
However, something on the Island makes this possible, perhaps which is why Ben thinks it is necessary to get back to the Island... to keep them alive?

What if Christian was genetically enhanced and so can't die? Like Widmore and Ben? Like Locke? Give them a shot and whoa! Alive again!

When the plane crashed Sayid told Kate it was impossible for them to have survived. What if they didn't, but Richard gave them a shot? Just those that have been genetically enhanced... my list? Perhaps it isn't enough to match Jacob's list but I think POSSIBLY some of them coud be Sun, Jack, Kate, Aaron, Hurley, Sayid, Michael and Walt. I'm also thinking Vincent was as well.
However, something on the Island makes this possible, perhaps which is why Ben thinks it is necessary to get back to the Island... to keep them alive?

I hope you dont mean a shot like a medical syringe.

Good point. I had forgotten that scene with Hurley. And now Claire is in there too. Well, they promised us no zombie season, so I'm hoping that next season we will get a better understanding of who is who. If Christian and Jacob are separate, then would you assume that they are at least on the "same team" ("The Island Protectors team")?

There are two forces on the island. One was reincarnted in Christian, probably the dark one. Jacob, or the light one, will be reincarnated in Locke when he is brought back to the island dead. That was the whole purpose of Alpert's test. To check if he could be Jacob's host.

Interesting and certainly possible, but who is the dark force of the Island then? We have heard no mention and if Christain is indeed the dark force which is possible because he creeps me out is that why Jacob is begging for help because he is being held hostage?

I don't like the concept of the island as some sort of zombie zoo. I am more accepting of Smokey or some other island entity manifiesting itself and taking on the form of someone it has seen.

If they really are going the reincarnation route (which is hard to imagine going well, but I have faith), what I'm thinking is that John picked the item that had belong to him (obviously, as John is all about knives), and that that person was a force for evil on the island in the past. That explains Richard's rather severe reaction. He had found the "bad guy."

Yes, that's how I understood Richard's reaction as well. That's what I meant earlier in this thread about Locke continually failing the tests even now. I'd hate to think of him as a bad guy, but perhaps the reason he is failing all of the tests so far is that he would pass the other team's tests with flying colors. Or perhaps he is failing them because he just isn't ready spiritually to pass them yet.

I don't like the concept of the island as some sort of zombie zoo. I am more accepting of Smokey or some other island entity manifiesting itself and taking on the form of someone it has seen.
Yeah, Zombie Zoos and Reincarnation Island are not scenarios I am fond of. I really hope the writers pull something else out of their hats to explain what's going on (something more original or surprising anyway). I'm scared that "zombies" and reincarnation will come across as unfulfilling best and lame at worst.

But that would imply that Locke is no more special than Christian. So I think we will see him as something more. Don't know what.

If they really are going the reincarnation route (which is hard to imagine going well, but I have faith), what I'm thinking is that John picked the item that had belong to him (obviously, as John is all about knives), and that that person was a force for evil on the island in the past. That explains Richard's rather severe reaction. He had found the "bad guy." However... consistent I think with the same Buddhist ideology, a lifetime of suffering purified John's soul, so that he is just as powerful as he was in a previous life, but now he is good as well.

I think that the reality of the reincarnation is that Locke is a mix of himself and whoever he was before.

The many references to alchemy (joining of two into one or separating of one into two)... speak to John and Ben being similar but not the same...

The reference in Fire + Water to Farenheit 451... speaks to this idea also...
His mind would well over at last and he would not be Montag any more, this the old man told him, assured him, promised him. He would be Montag plus-Faber, fire plus water, and then, one day, after everything had mixed and simmered and worked away in silence, there would be neither fire nor water, but wine. Out of two separate and opposite things, a third.

I think Alpert's interest in John is because he already knows something about where John comes from... I mean look at the name of his "special school"/company... MIttlelos Bioscience. The fact that Richard tells 5 year old Locke that he isn't "ready yet," and makes another attempt when Locke is a teen (Locke is still not ready yet) just means that Locke as he is now is really a stubborn person ... and he proves it over and over. It takes him a long time to "get back home again."

Charlotte seems to have a drive to find out where she came from too. I think "the island" wants it's original guardians back and has been trying to bring them to the island for some time. Many of these original guardians are dead but reincarnated into other people.

So, do you think Jack needs to get everyone back to the Island to defeat Christian? I've been thinking that Christian is up to no good.

So, do you think Jack needs to get everyone back to the Island to defeat Christian? I've been thinking that Christian is up to no good.Well since Christian was DOA at the island; I think he is incorporeal and now has convinced Claire she should attack the remaining Others &/or the Lostees (perhaps with Sawyer's help or perhaps with Jin's spirit). :biggrin:

Does things being bad on the island mean bad for everyone or bad for those who follow Locke?, bad because of conflict?, bad because of island fever?, bad because supplies are no longer dropped?, bad because they ran out of Apollo bars? bad because they won't listen to Locke? or bad because the island landed in the arctic instead of the tropics? :confused:

Why then didn't this force get inside Locke after they crashed, then? I believe we have the answer: the host needs to be dead upon arriving at the island.
Obviously Christian was the right host also. I wonder if he had ever been on the island before? Were things arranged by someone in order to make sure that Christian ended up on the island????

Wow, the idea that Locke needed to be dead so he could host someone or something else is really really creepy.:eek:

Wow, the idea that Locke needed to be dead so he could host someone or something else is really really creepy.:eek:

I agree, creepy! I hope the writers don't go this way... I see dead people, kind of thing. I'm thinking the same thing happened to Christian that happen to Char Malkin. Guess we will find out soon!