First post, hope this hasn't already been discussed to death. Given the fact that the price one pays for moving the island is exile, could that explain Widmore's obsession with finding it? Could it also explain why he himself did not attempt to set foot on the island?

This could also explain the change in the island's power structure from DHARMA to the others.

I'm curious at how permanent the exile is, however. Ben spoke, if I recall correctly, as if he needed to return as well as the Oceanic 6.

Thoughts? Criticism?

The thought crossed my mind as well.

Sounds at least plausible.

Thats the first thing that jumped into my mind too

It seemed to me that Ben intended to go back. And if Locke really is gone, then why wouldn't he want to return?
I'm trying to recall how they say Locke (Jeremy Bentham) died? I'm going to have to rewatch the episode this weekend. There was a lot to take in during that two hours.
I think it was a good finale. I'm glad the soldiers are gone. I'm just trying to figure out how bad things could be for the people remaining on the island, after the 6 left. What could've happened that was so bad?

...I'm trying to recall how they say Locke (Jeremy Bentham) died?...

"apparent" suicide

First post, hope this hasn't already been discussed to death. Given the fact that the price one pays for moving the island is exile, could that explain Widmore's obsession with finding it? Could it also explain why he himself did not attempt to set foot on the island?

This could also explain the change in the island's power structure from DHARMA to the others.

I'm curious at how permanent the exile is, however. Ben spoke, if I recall correctly, as if he needed to return as well as the Oceanic 6.

Thoughts? Criticism?

I think you're right. I've been thinking for awhile now that Widmore was the former leader of the hostiles. The one who ordered the purge.

That's a great theory. Maybe after someone moves the island/is banished, they don't know where the island is, hence why Widmore (and now Ben) are dying to find the island and wanting to go back. I wonder what they mean by banished -- are they just not supposed to go back? Are they prohibited from going back (a la the island not allowing Michael to be killed??) by the island?

And yeah, it was mentioned in this episode that it was an apparent suicide. And if I remember correctly from the end of last season, when the clip of the obit was scrutinized, it said something about a hanging death.

Aside -- do we know why John was going by Jeremy Bentham??

I posted something about this here:
Everchanging Leaders (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=96632)
But it sunk to the depths of the board before anyone responded. Check it out. Reply! (I need pity posts.)

I think Widmore lead Ben to the Orchid 15 years ago, when he moved the island. Locke will move it again 3 years from now. ("Now" being island-time, pre-move)

"apparent" suicide

yup, although it is a bit alarming that the island would "let" him die...:eek2:

I posted something about this here:
Everchanging Leaders (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=96632)
But it sunk to the depths of the board before anyone responded. Check it out. Reply! (I need pity posts.)

I think Widmore lead Ben to the Orchid 15 years ago, when he moved the island. Locke will move it again 3 years from now. ("Now" being island-time, pre-move)

I agree, if Locke was recruiting people to go back to the island he wasn't working for the island in the sense of sending Others out for home visits (ie a visit to Michael in NYC).

Ben and Locke are trying to get the gang together with ulterior motives. Perhaps the island needs them back, but if they know the plane will go down with the O6 on it I would want to be on that plane if I were Locke (and Ben).

I was thinking the same thing.

When Ben mentioned "Because those are the rules," the first thing that popped into my head was Widmore moved the Island and now wants to get back, hence Ben having the realization a few episodes back and remarking, "He's changing the rules."

Also, didn't Ben mention "The Rules" when he confronted Widmore in his suite? Widmore asked if Ben was going to kill him and Ben replied something about "You know the rules."

SO that's my hunch.

I totally agree with the idea of Widmore moving the island at one point or another. I was just rewatching some clips from a while ago, and at one point Keamy mentions that they are going to "secondary protocol" which is located in a lovely Dharma labeled folder. He also says that it is "where Linus is going." We clearly saw them waiting for Ben to come to the Orchid station.

Since Keamy and his guys were hired by Widmore, I would assume that Widmore is the one who got that folder of information. I would also guess that Widmore got that information when he was in the Orchid station and also moved the island while he was down there. Therefore, he can't come back per the "rules".

Now, could it be that one of the "rules" is that a former "leader" can not kill another former leader? Or could it be that Widmore or Ben has bent or broken so many rules that he is the reason that the "bad things" have happened on the island? Could Jacob be taking his anger out on the people of the island? Maybe the only way to rectify the situation is to return everyone back to the island for some reason or another?

Anyway, plenty of questions to keep me busy until 2009...and yet I want to know now! :biggrin:

That's a great theory. Maybe after someone moves the island/is banished, they don't know where the island is, hence why Widmore (and now Ben) are dying to find the island and wanting to go back. I wonder what they mean by banished -- are they just not supposed to go back? Are they prohibited from going back (a la the island not allowing Michael to be killed??) by the island?

Good theory, erins. I just realised though, that it must be more than this. We know people can leave and return to the island (Tom, Richard). So if Ben needed to know where it is, they could tell him. Just leaving a message at a pre-arranged place would do it.

If he did move it first, at some point a polar bear must have moved it- that explains why a dead one was found in Tunisia, around the same spot Ben showed up after he moved it.

Here's the other thing. Widmore is looking for Ben. Even though Keamy and company didn't succeed in abducting him, Widmore forced Ben to move the island, meaning he is now a heckuva lot easier to capture.

A master move by Widmore, actually. The military men he sent were probably never meant to really catch Ben. If they did, swell. If not, Ben would still be forced to move the island and be exiled.

Reminds me of an abusive boyfriend in that Widmore is basically saying, "If I can't have the island, then neither can you."

I totally agree with the idea of Widmore moving the island at one point or another. I was just rewatching some clips from a while ago, and at one point Keamy mentions that they are going to "secondary protocol" which is located in a lovely Dharma labeled folder. He also says that it is "where Linus is going." We clearly saw them waiting for Ben to come to the Orchid station.

Since Keamy and his guys were hired by Widmore, I would assume that Widmore is the one who got that folder of information. I would also guess that Widmore got that information when he was in the Orchid station and also moved the island while he was down there. Therefore, he can't come back per the "rules".

Now, could it be that one of the "rules" is that a former "leader" can not kill another former leader? Or could it be that Widmore or Ben has bent or broken so many rules that he is the reason that the "bad things" have happened on the island? Could Jacob be taking his anger out on the people of the island? Maybe the only way to rectify the situation is to return everyone back to the island for some reason or another?

Anyway, plenty of questions to keep me busy until 2009...and yet I want to know now! :biggrin:

Some good thoughts!! I love the idea that Widmore once moved the Island as well and left Ben as the leader. While I watched that scene again I couldn't help but picture Widmore and Ben instead of Ben and Locke. "The Circle" indeed!

I like your reasoning about sending Keamy to get Ben because Widmore couldn't go to the Island, but I don't know if that's the case. I think Widmore wants to find the Island so he can go there and he was only sending Keamy there to retrieve Ben. Maybe that's one of the rules, the former leader can't go there, while the protege is still in charge?? Who knows, it's something that's gonna keep people guessing for awhile. Plus, I'm not sure we can entirely believe what Ben said about the person who moves the Island can't go back. I think the person can't go back because they wouldn't be able to find it.

Also, I keep having suspicions that somethings not right that Ben moved the Island when it was supposed to be Locke. That seems a little fishy. I think Ben had a feeling that leaving Locke in charge would cause the Island to fall apart. The way Ben was acting in the Orchid seemed to suggest he didn't think Locke was ready. His comment about letting his emotions cloud some of his decisions and Locke would not let that happen seemed to be typical tongue in cheek Ben.