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Lost_in_DeLandFla
05-30-2008, 01:59 AM
Ok, it appears that Ben puts on the coat, turns the Donkey Wheel, cries and ends up in Tunesia, where he has to figure out what his next move will be.

However, we see that he is prepared, he has pictures of Nadia, he knows what is going on. How does this work? It seems that the events would be linear, but obviously they can't be that simple, Ben does know what is going on when he winds up in Tunesia. My brain hurts.

Beach Bum
05-30-2008, 02:08 AM
With Ben falling and hurting his arm it clearing shows that this is when he goes to Tunesia. Heis arm is hurt when he gets there. But that does not mean that it has to be the time when he meets up with Sayid. I believe it is, but it could be explained away.

Lost_in_DeLandFla
05-30-2008, 02:15 AM
I believe it is the same trip as well, bloody arm, same coat. Ben is pretty raw emotionally when he has to leave the island, but when we saw him fighting the horse riders and meeting up with Sayid, he was all-knowing calm and creepy Ben--just the way we love him. I guess you are right, the two events in Tunesia do not necessarily have to be the same trip. I believe when he has the clerk look up his name, he says he had been there a week before.

awesomecoolderek
05-30-2008, 02:16 AM
I think we're supposed to believe Ben doesn't know a thing about Sayid or Nadia until he makes it to the hotel and randomly sees Sayid on TV. That's when Ben digs up the pictures of Nadia's killer running a red light, and et cetera. (Or, at least, this is what I'm hoping for... because I'm not sure how much more disbelief I can suspend after tonight's disaster.)

Goldfoot
05-30-2008, 02:18 AM
I think we're supposed to believe Ben doesn't know a thing about Sayid or Nadia until he makes it to the hotel and randomly sees Sayid on TV. That's when Ben digs up the pictures of Nadia's killer running a red light, and et cetera.

And Bingo was his name-o.

I took out the rest of the quote because I loved this finale.

Charlie
05-30-2008, 02:20 AM
I think we're supposed to believe Ben doesn't know a thing about Sayid or Nadia until he makes it to the hotel and randomly sees Sayid on TV. That's when Ben digs up the pictures of Nadia's killer running a red light, and et cetera.

I think that's right. At least that was how it struck me.

Anyone have any theories on what, mechanically, actually happened with the wheel and what it was doing/moving/opening? How did Candle term what was believed to be behind that wall again?

SeafaringTurnip
05-30-2008, 02:21 AM
Yeah, the events are probably as follows: Ben turns wheel, arrives in Tunisia, sees Sayid mourning Nadia on TV, thinks "hmm, that can't be a coincidence," does a bit of recon, realizes Widmore is behind it, travels to Iraq where Sayid is also traveling, and then the events of "The Shape of Things to Come."

awesomecoolderek
05-30-2008, 02:22 AM
And Bingo was his name-o.

I took out the rest of the quote because I loved this finale.
Ha! Well... maybe I'll appreciate it more in time. The first hour was pretty acceptable: a great fight scene, some guerilla-Others, an interesting Charlotte storyline... but I lost it when Ben had to move an actual, ancient "frozen wheel" - for cheese!

dsizzle
05-30-2008, 02:22 AM
First time posting everyone so be kind.

I definitely think this is how Ben ended up in Tunisia.

The island disappears in December of 2004 right?

What was the date the desk clerk gave him again?

Maybe the island moved to the same point in time as Ben did???

briar910
05-30-2008, 02:30 AM
I never would have guessed that "frozen donkey wheel" was NOT a metaphor

awesomecoolderek
05-30-2008, 02:33 AM
First time posting everyone so be kind.

I definitely think this is how Ben ended up in Tunisia.

The island disappears in December of 2004 right?

What was the date the desk clerk gave him again?

Maybe the island moved to the same point in time as Ben did???
The island moved in early January of '05. Ben appeared in October 23rd, 2005. It's possible the island "jumped" to the same time, but not necessary...

Welcome to the boards...

Goldfoot
05-30-2008, 02:33 AM
Ha! Well... maybe I'll appreciate it more in time. The first hour was pretty acceptable: a great fight scene, some guerilla-Others, an interesting Charlotte storyline... but I lost it when Ben had to move an actual, ancient "frozen wheel" - for cheese!

Well, to each his own, but they could have pretty much pulled anything and I would have loved it after seeing Des and Penny reunite. Having said that, I'm a sucker for science fiction, so I loved the whole moving of the island anyway. I'm definitely more pleased with this finale than last. Mainly because I know Des is back with Penny. This is going to be an easier summer.

Lost_in_DeLandFla
05-30-2008, 02:34 AM
I never would have guessed that "frozen donkey wheel" was NOT a metaphor
Me either little sis--made me laugh out loud!

awesomecoolderek
05-30-2008, 02:37 AM
Well, to each his own, but they could have pretty much pulled anything and I would have loved it after seeing Des and Penny reunite. Having said that, I'm a sucker for science fiction, so I loved the whole moving of the island anyway. I'm definitely more pleased with this finale than last. Mainly because I know Des is back with Penny. This is going to be an easier summer.
I love Desmond and Penny, I consider it the best "relationship" storyline on LOST. (Though Rose/Bernard and Jin/Sun are also great... anything but the love geometry crap from the A-Team!) However, now what do Desmond and Penny do for two years?!?! I've been anticipating a reunion too, but not this soon... and not so compressed! I feel like all the chaos from the finale just took away from what it could have been. It was just like "Ooops, and ten minutes left... and here you go!"

I don't mind moving the island in time like that... but spinning a wheel?!?!

dsizzle
05-30-2008, 02:41 AM
The island moved in early January of '05. Ben appeared in October 23rd, 2005. It's possible the island "jumped" to the same time, but not necessary...

Welcome to the boards...

Thanks.

Trying to put this show together is enough to put you in a room with Hurley! :confused:

Goldfoot
05-30-2008, 02:45 AM
I love Desmond and Penny, I consider it the best "relationship" storyline on LOST. (Though Rose/Bernard and Jin/Sun are also great... anything but the love geometry crap from the A-Team!) However, now what do Desmond and Penny do for two years?!?! I've been anticipating a reunion too, but not this soon... and not so compressed! I feel like all the chaos from the finale just took away from what it could have been. It was just like "Ooops, and ten minutes left... and here you go!"

I don't mind moving the island in time like that... but spinning a wheel?!?!

Well, now Ben is out to get Penny. Des has to keep her safe. I have a feeling the long awaited scene with Desmond and Ben is in the works. It's going to be epic if we get it. Anyway, theirs is the only relationship I cared about until I saw that little bit going on with Charlotte and Daniel, but that's small potatoes compared to Des and Penny. I was ecstatic with their reunion. As soon as I heard whatshisass say "Miss Widmore" I was a giddy little school girl and my friends definitely made fun of me for it. I don't even care though because since the airing of Live Together, Die Alone I've been a huge fan of Desmond. I think it would have been too typical to have them reunite during a Desmond episode. It would seem too right, and what about this shows screams "right" to you? I don't know, I'm more than with pleased with how it turned out.

As for the wheel, yeah that was kind of anti climactic, but it makes you think of what's happening in a more "organic" way I guess. It's not some "silly" scientific device that does it, but a big wheel which could be ancient. We don't know what was going on on the other side of those rocks. That is left up to the imagination and right now I'm not even thinking about it. That's for later in the break, hehe.

Evn
05-30-2008, 03:37 AM
Riddle me this:
Why does Ben throw up orange juice when arriving in Tunisia? He didn't drink any at the orchid?

sculder13
05-30-2008, 03:52 AM
i think the big frozen wheel was great. it showed that there is something deeper and more ancient going on with the island. think 4 toed statue and the glyphs on that door before smokey was summoned.

sabirpirzada
05-30-2008, 03:55 AM
When he pushed the wheel, it seemed a lot like Desmond turning the key. The sky goes white, and some crazy electro-magnetic stuff happens. Now, because Ben has been exposed to so much radiation, he can never go back to the island, because then he would die (he doesn't have a Constant like Desmond does).

Desmundo
05-30-2008, 04:12 AM
When he pushed the wheel, it seemed a lot like Desmond turning the key. The sky goes white, and some crazy electro-magnetic stuff happens. Now, because Ben has been exposed to so much radiation, he can never go back to the island, because then he would die (he doesn't have a Constant like Desmond does).

Do he's not going back? The way he was talking to Jack in the funeral parlor it seemed like he had a plan to return to the island with the Oceanic Six. He was dropping a lot of "we"s.

BrothaJefe316
05-30-2008, 05:50 AM
I never would have guessed that "frozen donkey wheel" was NOT a metaphor

Ha! Yeah, me too! All this time they were literally flying it right in our faces... I can't believe it!
100%
i think the big frozen wheel was great. it showed that there is something deeper and more ancient going on with the island. think 4 toed statue and the glyphs on that door before smokey was summoned.

Word.

unhans
05-30-2008, 07:46 AM
Do he's not going back? The way he was talking to Jack in the funeral parlor it seemed like he had a plan to return to the island with the Oceanic Six. He was dropping a lot of "we"s.

I'm sure that he's got some way of going back now that John is dead..

ginloveslost
05-30-2008, 08:42 AM
Can somebody help me with a few questions I have re when Ben arrived in Tunisia (sp?). First of all, he knew the language...if this was the first time he left...how and why would he have known the language. When he asked the date the clerk told him the month and day, but he stated the year....how did he know that? Lucky guess? And he also stated that he was a "preferred member" at that hotel. How? Just a couple of things I don't quite understand about him arriving in Tunisia.

I do agree that he didn't know what he was supposed to do until he saw Sayid on the TV.

driveshaft76
05-30-2008, 08:50 AM
Can somebody help me with a few questions I have re when Ben arrived in Tunisia (sp?). First of all, he knew the language...if this was the first time he left...how and why would he have known the language. When he asked the date the clerk told him the month and day, but he stated the year....how did he know that? Lucky guess? And he also stated that he was a "preferred member" at that hotel. How? Just a couple of things I don't quite understand about him arriving in Tunisia.

I do agree that he didn't know what he was supposed to do until he saw Sayid on the TV.

Because 'moving the island' is not the same as traveling off the island by whatever means the others did use. We've seen them come and go from the Island.

I think it was hysterical that the code-name "Frozen Donkey Wheel" scene was actually a frozen donkey wheel.

nancy
05-30-2008, 09:03 AM
When he pushed the wheel, it seemed a lot like Desmond turning the key. The sky goes white, and some crazy electro-magnetic stuff happens.

That's exactly what it was like. I think Ben is crying because he realizes the magnitude of what he is doing. Like Desmond, he's right next to a huge explosion of radiation (no wonder he threw up when he got to Tunisia) that is bound to have some effect on him. I also think though that he lied about not being able to go back to the island. Ben says whatever is expedient for the moment. It certainly sounded as though he would be going back with Jack to "reset" things to the way they should have turned out if the O6 had stayed there.

headmusic
05-30-2008, 09:43 AM
Can somebody help me with a few questions I have re when Ben arrived in Tunisia (sp?). First of all, he knew the language...if this was the first time he left...how and why would he have known the language. When he asked the date the clerk told him the month and day, but he stated the year....how did he know that? Lucky guess? And he also stated that he was a "preferred member" at that hotel. How? Just a couple of things I don't quite understand about him arriving in Tunisia.

I do agree that he didn't know what he was supposed to do until he saw Sayid on the TV.

I think Tunisia is a common destination when invoking the kasimir(sp?) affect, or whatever happened when he turned that wheel, because that's where that polar bear ended up. Ben, being one to "always have a plan" would be sure to know the language if this is a place he's going to frequent. Ben stating that he's a preferred member at the Iraq hotel makes me think this as well. It's apparently a fairly heavily treaded path.

As for the donkey wheel, I think it hints at just how ancient the island is and just how long it's inhabitants have known how to manipulate the properties of physics on the island (or maybe in general). Between that, the "smokey" door, and the four-toed statue, it makes me wonder if the entire island is a product of an ancient extra-terrestrial race or if the island's inhabitants just have an ancient understanding of the physical world. Something akin to other civilizations like the Egyptians or the Romans. Imagine if people from thousands of years ago had discovered something like the time/space continuum. We always assume that we're the most advanced civilization in the world's history, but who's to say somebody else didn't have more figured out than us? The Romans had figured out quite a bit in terms of architecture, math, etc... and there's evidence that shows that Egyptians were doing surgery literally thousands of years ago. Who's to say other civilizations couldn't have existed that we never heard about because they actually figured out things like how to move through time and space so modern day archaeologists (other than Charlotte of course) have never turned anything up about them? It's kind of hard to learn about an ancient race of people if the land they inhabited is able to physically move.

I know this is all pretty far out there, but it's where my mind went after last night's finale.

nancy
05-30-2008, 09:58 AM
That makes sense to me. It's clear from all of the things that you mentioned, headmusic, as well as the never-aging Richard Alpert and the ever-present Christian Shepherd that there are things at work on the island that are very ancient. Darlton has said in a recent podcast that no one is an alien, but that doesn't mean that the idea of ancient civilizations with powers that we don't understand is too far off the mark.

Pythagoras99
05-30-2008, 10:09 AM
Anyone have any theories on what, mechanically, actually happened with the wheel and what it was doing/moving/opening? How did Candle term what was believed to be behind that wall again?

"negatively charged exotic matter," also called negative matter, which is (in this case charged) matter with negative mass, which is exactly what I've been theorizing is under the island, giving it both its electromagnetic and space-time properties. It all fits in perfectly with the properties themselves as well as Daniel's notebook.

Negative matter has an inherent negative energy, which 1) is the reason for the extreme cold in its immediate vicinity, 2) allows for the stabilization of wormholes, and 3) creates a field of negative gravity, which is opposed to the earth's positive gravity, causing the extreme bend in space-time that creates the space-time bubble around the island as well as the similar phenomena that cause the wormholes, which are bridges to other parts of the earth.

I think the wheel probably either compress the negative matter deposit, or shifts it a few millimeters. The few millimeters of shift, or perhaps even smaller amount of compression, is extremely magnified in terms of its effect on the curvature of space-time, because of the extreme space-time tension between the positive and negative matter. (Sort of like putting two like poles of a magnet together.)

So the result is that the island's bubble, which now also contains the remains of the freighter, is now bent into a different location in relation to the surrounding space (and possibly time.)

headmusic
05-30-2008, 10:19 AM
So, would it be safe to assume that because Ben actually had to blow a hole in the wall of the pod in the Orchid to get to the "donkey wheel" that the island has not been moved since Dharma arrived? And would you say that the explicit instructions on the tape to not put any non-organic material in the pod was a way of keeping what was on the other side of the wall concealed?

Pythagoras99
05-30-2008, 10:27 AM
First of all, he knew the language...if this was the first time he left...how and why would he have known the language. When he asked the date the clerk told him the month and day, but he stated the year....how did he know that? Lucky guess? And he also stated that he was a "preferred member" at that hotel. How? Just a couple of things I don't quite understand about him arriving in Tunisia.

I do agree that he didn't know what he was supposed to do until he saw Sayid on the TV.

Remember, we saw that he had many passports from many different country. I think he probably knows a lot of languages. He said he was a preferred customer, but that he hadn't been there in very long time. I guess he guessed the date, because he figured it was more likely that he shifted forward in time by 8 or 10 months (I keep forgetting what she said, was it August? October?), rather than one or more years + 8 or 10 months.

And I don't think there's anything he was "supposed" to be doing. He was on his own revenge kick, and saw the opportunity to recruit Sayid. However, it appears that by 2008ish, when he talks to Jack, he's on different sort of mission.

EmptyJar
05-30-2008, 10:35 AM
Can somebody help me with a few questions I have re when Ben arrived in Tunisia (sp?). First of all, he knew the language...if this was the first time he left...how and why would he have known the language. When he asked the date the clerk told him the month and day, but he stated the year....how did he know that? Lucky guess? And he also stated that he was a "preferred member" at that hotel. How? Just a couple of things I don't quite understand about him arriving in Tunisia.

I do agree that he didn't know what he was supposed to do until he saw Sayid on the TV.

Yeah but he knew it was december 2004 on the island, he had to have. SO when the clerk said October 25? 23?.... well, ben knew that day had passed for him so the next logical year guess would be 2005. NOT 2004. He did say it with an air of caution as if he might be wrong, regardless.

We dont know this was his only time leaving, he's lied before. And for all they know, all the former "chosen ones" use those aliases at those hotels. There are other ways to Tunisia other than that wheel and I bet other Others or other chosen ones have used it as well.

slowlie
05-30-2008, 10:36 AM
"negatively charged exotic matter," also called negative matter, which is (in this case charged) matter with negative mass, which is exactly what I've been theorizing is under the island, giving it both its electromagnetic and space-time properties. It all fits in perfectly with the properties themselves as well as Daniel's notebook.

Negative matter has an inherent negative energy, which 1) is the reason for the extreme cold in its immediate vicinity, 2) allows for the stabilization of wormholes, and 3) creates a field of negative gravity, which is opposed to the earth's positive gravity, causing the extreme bend in space-time that creates the space-time bubble around the island as well as the similar phenomena that cause the wormholes, which are bridges to other parts of the earth.

I think the wheel probably either compress the negative matter deposit, or shifts it a few millimeters. The few millimeters of shift, or perhaps even smaller amount of compression, is extremely magnified in terms of its effect on the curvature of space-time, because of the extreme space-time tension between the positive and negative matter. (Sort of like putting two like poles of a magnet together.)

So the result is that the island's bubble, which now also contains the remains of the freighter, is now bent into a different location in relation to the surrounding space (and possibly time.)


Thanks for giving me the best possible summary of what that all might mean!

Jovial_Jay
05-30-2008, 10:52 AM
I don't mind moving the island in time like that... but spinning a wheel?!?!
Sure! It's like Mousetrap. Didn't John demonstrate the Mousetrap game for a kid in "Deus Ex Machina (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Season_1#Deus_Ex_Machina)". And how does the contraption start? By spinning a wheel. :biggrin:

AmoebaJo
05-30-2008, 12:00 PM
I don't know whjy the wheel is such a rediculous idea - we've seen an ancient heirogliphic covered door that somehow controls smokey, a four toed ancient statue, and somehow an ancient "donkey wheel" seems rediculous? We are dealing with an ancient force here as evidenced by not only the ancient technology used to control it, but by the ancient nature of the black rock, richards people, etc. Why does it seem so unreasonable that a huge, old looking wheel in the wall would be used to somehow move a mechanism that somehow manipulates the exotic matter in the area to move the island?

Also, I haven't heard this referenced yet, but if this show is obsessed with time loops and whatnot, why hasn't the correlation been made between this wheel acting as a literal manifistation, or representation of the wheel of samsara? In hinduism and bhudism the point is to make up for you bad kharma (dharma) or eventually become detached enough from the world by following the fundamental truths that you get unstuck from reality, and escape the wheel of samsara, or reincarnation. I thought this perfectly fitting into the shows themes and not out of place or lame at all.

amberslost
05-30-2008, 12:41 PM
[quote=ginloveslost;1911967] And he also stated that he was a "preferred member" at that hotel. How?

I said he was "Dean Moriarity" which is Jack Keroac's friend and travelling buddy in "On the Road". I think he's also in "The Dharma Bums" by Keroac.

Maybe he was just using his name because he knew that the real Dean had been a preferred member there in the past.

Hobbette
05-30-2008, 01:37 PM
Someone not too far above me mentioned The Black Rock, etc. As I just read in a different thread, TBR may not be related to the other ancient stuff. During an island move, the island could have popped up right beneath it! *shrugs*

AmoebaJo
05-30-2008, 02:02 PM
I'm not saying the black rock is connected - I think the stuff under bens house and the statue are - but I said that to make the point that there is a lot of old stuff on the island, but I can see where I got off track there... My point however was that I didn't understand everyones beef with the fro2n donkey wheel for the reasons I stated above... Maybe I should go back and edit out the part about TBR...

Tim815
06-04-2008, 06:36 PM
Anyone else think Dharma was training the polar bears to move the island, and apparently have before, seeing as how there was a polar bear skeleton in Tunisia? Would make sense since it was so cold in that room.

dsizzle
06-04-2008, 06:41 PM
Anyone else think Dharma was training the polar bears to move the island, and apparently have before, seeing as how there was a polar bear skeleton in Tunisia? Would make sense since it was so cold in that room.

They're discussing this elsewhere and it seems to be the general concensus that the bear would not have been able to get down to where the donkey wheel is.....:undecide:

Tim815
06-04-2008, 06:45 PM
Thanks DS...but i think the opening may have been alot bigger and since noone was back there for awhile it looked smaller.

hezekiah
06-11-2008, 02:49 PM
I think we're supposed to believe Ben doesn't know a thing about Sayid or Nadia until he makes it to the hotel and randomly sees Sayid on TV. That's when Ben digs up the pictures of Nadia's killer running a red light, and et cetera. (Or, at least, this is what I'm hoping for... because I'm not sure how much more disbelief I can suspend after tonight's disaster.)

The key word phrase is "supposed to believe" .I doubt very much that Ben had to dig up the picture. I think he was the one responsible for Nadia's death to begin with. I also believe that he just didn't land in the desert and show up at the hotel in the space of a couple of hours. Unless that parka of Haliwax's conveniently had I.D. with Ben's picture on it, Tunisian money and a change of clothes stiffed into the pockets he had to have made a side trip somewhere

simone5p
06-11-2008, 04:59 PM
When he pushed the wheel, it seemed a lot like Desmond turning the key. The sky goes white, and some crazy electro-magnetic stuff happens. Now, because Ben has been exposed to so much radiation, he can never go back to the island, because then he would die (he doesn't have a Constant like Desmond does).

That's a good point... perhaps that is why he can't go back to the island... but why wouldn't he have a constant in Richard?

Ben could have taken a few weeks to get to Iraq and to the time of Nadia's funeral... Sayid said something about them only being married for three months before she died.

BillToons
06-11-2008, 05:40 PM
They're discussing this elsewhere and it seems to be the general concensus that the bear would not have been able to get down to where the donkey wheel is.....:undecide:

When Eko nearly dies he's drug into some fairly significant caves by the polar bears. Maybe John Locke should have explored those caves further as they may have lead to this place of the wheel.

LostRocker815
06-11-2008, 05:54 PM
I was surprized that the codename 'Frozen donkey wheel' actually meant the frozen donkey wheel. I thought it was just a crazy code name!

avandelay
06-11-2008, 06:39 PM
The key word phrase is "supposed to believe" .I doubt very much that Ben had to dig up the picture. I think he was the one responsible for Nadia's death to begin with. I also believe that he just didn't land in the desert and show up at the hotel in the space of a couple of hours. Unless that parka of Haliwax's conveniently had I.D. with Ben's picture on it, Tunisian money and a change of clothes stiffed into the pockets he had to have made a side trip somewhere

Ben could easily have a box of clothes, money, and identification stashed out in that desert somewhere. We are led to believe that he's made that journey before (by the standing reservation at the hotel), so I don't see why he wouldn't have those items handy for instances such as this.

hezekiah
06-12-2008, 06:40 PM
Ben could easily have a box of clothes, money, and identification stashed out in that desert somewhere. We are led to believe that he's made that journey before (by the standing reservation at the hotel), so I don't see why he wouldn't have those items handy for instances such as this.

The reservations at the hotel were standing ones and it seemed as if they hadn't been used for a while. I'm wondering if Ben was the ONLY one who had used that particular alias

Goldfoot
06-12-2008, 06:49 PM
I think he was the one responsible for Nadia's death to begin with. I also believe that he just didn't land in the desert and show up at the hotel in the space of a couple of hours.

How is that possible when Ben wasn't a part of the timeline during the first 10.5 months or so of 2005? He checked in to the hotel and then saw on the TV Nadia had died. I believe that Ben wasn't physically present anywhere on Earth when she died.

Pythagoras99
06-12-2008, 07:16 PM
The key word phrase is "supposed to believe" .I doubt very much that Ben had to dig up the picture. I think he was the one responsible for Nadia's death to begin with. I also believe that he just didn't land in the desert and show up at the hotel in the space of a couple of hours. Unless that parka of Haliwax's conveniently had I.D. with Ben's picture on it, Tunisian money and a change of clothes stiffed into the pockets he had to have made a side trip somewhere

He ditched the parka. He didn't take anything out of it. I think you're partially right, he does show up at the hotel within the space of a couple of hours, but he also does make a side trip. You'll notice that when he shows up at the hotel, he's in the same clothes, with the same makeshift tourniquet on his injured arm, from when he first arrived. There are two things that are different about him though. 1) he is completely covered in dust and dirt -- much moreso than when he was lying in the desert, and more than I would imagine you could achieve just by riding a horse through the desert, and 2) he has a satchel which he didn't have before, which is likewise completely covered in dirt -- as if it had been buried in the desert for a long time.

I don't know if Ben had money yet, but it seems most likely that his passport came from the satchel he apparently recovered in the desert. And I don't see any reason to suspect otherwise than that the TV report was the first he heard about Nadia's death. The injury with the beduin's headdress as a tourniquet and the same filthy clothes makes it pretty clear that he arrived there pretty much directly from Jan '05 on the island -- the same day (in his reference frame) that he sent Sayid off with the helicopter.

toddintexas
06-12-2008, 08:48 PM
When Eko nearly dies he's drug into some fairly significant caves by the polar bears. Maybe John Locke should have explored those caves further as they may have lead to this place of the wheel.

It would be very difficult to get a polar bear down the ladder that Ben had to manipulate, and the tunnel the ladder was in was not very wide. Getting the polar bear to this point, may be possible, but getting down the ladder/tunnel, makes it unlikely that a polar bear was in the FDW chamber.

Unless of course DHARMA was breeding the polar bears and used the cubs, which would have been much easier to get down to the FDW than the adult bears.........

simone5p
06-13-2008, 02:16 AM
The polar bear could have been stuffed into the vault, but there may be other places on the island from which the polar bear was sent. The Others seem to teleport themselves around the jungle somehow. Also, perhaps there is another way to get to the FDW chamber?

Fierro
06-13-2008, 11:11 AM
the most interesting part is that he knew he would end up in 2005. Check the dialogue with the receptionist. He assumed it was 2005, and apparently he had just came from 2004.
He knew he would be 'time shifted' not more than a year.

Pythagoras99
06-13-2008, 01:29 PM
I said he was "Dean Moriarity" which is Jack Keroac's friend and travelling buddy in "On the Road". I think he's also in "The Dharma Bums" by Keroac.

I didn't realize that. I assumed Dean was the first name of Professor Moriarty, criminal mastermind and Sherlock Holmes' arch nemesis. Apparently he's James Moriarty.

I guess Dean Moriarty is thematically appropriate, to Lost because he was searching for his father, and to Ben because he symbolized of a promising life descending into disappointment, failure, and utter defeat.
100%
The polar bear could have been stuffed into the vault, but there may be other places on the island from which the polar bear was sent. The Others seem to teleport themselves around the jungle somehow. Also, perhaps there is another way to get to the FDW chamber?
I agree. I think a lot of people are making two big mistakes. 1) thinking that the ice chamber is the only place where one could traverse a wormhole from, and that turning the wheel is the only way to do it. Other places could include anywhere that was close to exotic matter, including (formerly) the Swan, and probably Ben's secret room's secret room. (Please D&C, let the secret room's secret room have a secret room! I'm begging you!;)) and the second big mistake is 2) thinking that Tunisia is the only possible other end of the wormhole. Let's not forget Cooper, who according to Ben was "brought" to the island by Locke from Tallahassee.

the most interesting part is that he knew he would end up in 2005. Check the dialogue with the receptionist. He assumed it was 2005, and apparently he had just came from 2004.
He knew he would be 'time shifted' not more than a year.

Yes, he had reason to suspect that he wouldn't have been moved by more than a year. AND he had reason to know or suspect that he wouldn't have been moved backwards.
100%
I believe that Ben wasn't physically present anywhere on Earth when she died.
It's an interesting concept. Technically, I think it depends. If the mouths of the wormhole only existed in those two respective moments in time, then you could possibly make that argument. If the mouths of the wormhole existed throughout those 10 months, then he was physically present "in" or "on" or "around" the earth for those two months. He was present in that small amount of space that directly connected Lostia to Tunisia, only traversing time MUCH more quickly than the rest of the earth was. But if it was a momentary wormhole... hmm. I'd still have to say that he was present on the PLACE earth during that time. He was still in the space-time that was directly connecting Tunisia 10/05 with Lostia 1/05, and that is part of the earth. It is just has no possible path to place in the universe's space-time encompassing those 10 months, other than through one of the two openings of the wormhole, on either end of those 10 months. So I would say he was "there" during the 10 months; he was only "isolated" for that 10 months (or for that moment, depending on your perspective).

Someone asked before about if there was a way a wormhole could somehow trap Jacob in some kind of limbo. I said no. But this kind of thing could be a yes answer to that that I didn't think of. If Jacob... or even JACOB'S CABIN, which would make even more sense, since it seems to be moving. Is in the process of traversing a wormhole across a large expanse of time, possibly across two points on the island, that could make a whole lot of sense. Maybe that even explains why so many sounds, especially in his cabin, but other voices as well, are speed up very fast or slowed down very slow (other than to obfuscate them for our benefit). Communication directly out of a wormhole, other than out of one of the ends of the wormhole, should not be physically possible at all. But maybe it is somehow metaphysically possible. Goodspeed built the cabin, so the early end of the wormhole couldn't have been too long ago. Is the circle of ash some ancient way that the islanders discovered could help cause wormholes on the island to open? Did an enemy of Jacob lure him into the cabin and send him off into the future so that he could take control? Jacob is obviously very powerful. So this way he would be completely isolated from the rest of space-time until the other end of the wormhole arrived. Maybe Widmore? And now Jacob is doing whatever he can to communicate and keep things in order from within the wormhole rather than just emerging at the other end to witness the mess left behind. Man, I think this really could be it! I can never remember names, but sorry to whoever you were who's idea of Jacob trapped in limbo by a wormhole I naysayed! :biggrin: